Comments on: Vendor Lock-In http://girtby.net/archives/2008/02/08/vendor-lock-in/ this blog is girtby.net Wed, 30 Sep 2009 01:44:34 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9-rare hourly 1 By: Brendan http://girtby.net/archives/2008/02/08/vendor-lock-in/comment-page-1/#comment-1665 Brendan Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:41:00 +0000 http://girtby.net/2008/02/13/vendor-lock-in#comment-1665 <p>Excellent response, Alastair. I read Schneier's essay before reading yours, and you hit every point that I came up with.</p> <p>I also agree with your conclusion -- vendor lock-in is enough of a problem that I'm glad we have people with big megaphones talking about it, but unfortunately, too many of those megaphone-wielders exaggerate their cases.</p> <p>There are a number of reasons that PCs became the standard and Macs remained a niche item, but one of the most important factors was that the hardware was pretty much open on PCs from the get-go. This allowed market forces to work, and more people opted for flexibility, which in turn spurred competition and knocked down the prices. So, if you wanted a Mac because you appreciated its superior [fill in pet feature here], you accepted the proprietary nature of the machine as the price to pay for increased quality. Mac had a second chance to win market share when they made the smart decision to base OS X on Unix -- I was one of many who bought a Mac in response. Then they made a series of dumb decisions and broke a lot of the Unix goodness. I won't buy another Mac, consequently.</p> <p>I expect the same thing will happen with next-gen smart phones -- some people will stick with the iPhone because they like its snazziness, others will opt for a different phone, whether because its hackable, cheaper, supports more telco services, or whatever.</p> Excellent response, Alastair. I read Schneier’s essay before reading yours, and you hit every point that I came up with.

I also agree with your conclusion — vendor lock-in is enough of a problem that I’m glad we have people with big megaphones talking about it, but unfortunately, too many of those megaphone-wielders exaggerate their cases.

There are a number of reasons that PCs became the standard and Macs remained a niche item, but one of the most important factors was that the hardware was pretty much open on PCs from the get-go. This allowed market forces to work, and more people opted for flexibility, which in turn spurred competition and knocked down the prices. So, if you wanted a Mac because you appreciated its superior [fill in pet feature here], you accepted the proprietary nature of the machine as the price to pay for increased quality. Mac had a second chance to win market share when they made the smart decision to base OS X on Unix — I was one of many who bought a Mac in response. Then they made a series of dumb decisions and broke a lot of the Unix goodness. I won’t buy another Mac, consequently.

I expect the same thing will happen with next-gen smart phones — some people will stick with the iPhone because they like its snazziness, others will opt for a different phone, whether because its hackable, cheaper, supports more telco services, or whatever.

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By: Alastair http://girtby.net/archives/2008/02/08/vendor-lock-in/comment-page-1/#comment-1666 Alastair Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:41:00 +0000 http://girtby.net/2008/02/13/vendor-lock-in#comment-1666 <p>Interestingly modern Intel-based macs have very minor differences to regular generic PC hardware. AFAIK the only major difference is that Apple uses <acronym title="Extensible Firmware Interface">EFI</acronym> instead of the dinosaur-era BIOS used in most PCs. Hey, you can run XP or Linux or whatever you want on most Intel Macs. No vendor lock-in to OS X any more!</p> <p>Curious to hear more about this statement:</p> <blockquote> <p>Then they made a series of dumb decisions and broke a lot of the Unix goodness.</p> </blockquote> Interestingly modern Intel-based macs have very minor differences to regular generic PC hardware. AFAIK the only major difference is that Apple uses EFI instead of the dinosaur-era BIOS used in most PCs. Hey, you can run XP or Linux or whatever you want on most Intel Macs. No vendor lock-in to OS X any more!

Curious to hear more about this statement:

Then they made a series of dumb decisions and broke a lot of the Unix goodness.

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By: Brendan http://girtby.net/archives/2008/02/08/vendor-lock-in/comment-page-1/#comment-1667 Brendan Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:41:00 +0000 http://girtby.net/2008/02/13/vendor-lock-in#comment-1667 <p>Good point about the Intel processors. But is it possible to install Windows on Apple hardware without OS X being installed first? (I'm not saying anyone would want to, of course.) And, probably as a consequence of Apple's move to Intel, I understand it's possible to get OS X running, natively, on a PC.</p> <p>As for breaking Unix, I've forgotten a lot of the specifics -- the reading I was doing a year or two ago convinced me to abandon the idea of a Unix box with a nice UI. The things I remember include messing with the file system, messing with permission bits, making changes to Unix source code that are not given back to the community (and/or introducing bugs that no one else will be able to look at), and (related) closing down the OpenDarwin initiative.</p> <p><a href="http://rixstep.com/2/20040621,00.shtml">Here</a>, <a href="http://rixstep.com/2/2/20070718,00.shtml">here</a>, and <a href="http://rixstep.com/2/20070608,01.shtml">here</a> are some examples.</p> <p>Less specific, but captures the mood: <a href="http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/09/eight_things_i_absolutely_hate.html">here</a>, <a href="http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/06/02/when-the-bough-breaks">here</a> and <a href="http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/29/mark-pilgrims-list-o.html">here</a>.</p> Good point about the Intel processors. But is it possible to install Windows on Apple hardware without OS X being installed first? (I’m not saying anyone would want to, of course.) And, probably as a consequence of Apple’s move to Intel, I understand it’s possible to get OS X running, natively, on a PC.

As for breaking Unix, I’ve forgotten a lot of the specifics — the reading I was doing a year or two ago convinced me to abandon the idea of a Unix box with a nice UI. The things I remember include messing with the file system, messing with permission bits, making changes to Unix source code that are not given back to the community (and/or introducing bugs that no one else will be able to look at), and (related) closing down the OpenDarwin initiative.

Here, here, and here are some examples.

Less specific, but captures the mood: here, here and here.

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By: Alastair http://girtby.net/archives/2008/02/08/vendor-lock-in/comment-page-1/#comment-1668 Alastair Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:41:00 +0000 http://girtby.net/2008/02/13/vendor-lock-in#comment-1668 <p>Good links there Brendon. I absolutely agree with the rixstep articles that HFS+ is well and truly due for replacement. In fact Linus <a href="http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/utter-crap-torvalds-pans-apple/2008/02/05/1202090393959.html">said as much</a> at LCA recently. There were many of us who were eagerly anticipating the inclusion of Sun's ZFS as the new default filesystem in Leopard, but sadly that was not to be.</p> <p>I don't disagree with any of the criticisms in the O'Reilly article either, and I would have a few to add to this list (<code>PT_DENY_ATTACH</code>!), but neither these nor the HFS+ problems are overwhelming, particularly given the other major goodness of OS X as a whole. YMMV of course.</p> <p>I've thought a good deal about Mark Pilgrim's exodus to Ubuntu, and specifically about the freedom concerns. As I stated previously, I share these concerns, but put my main priority on need for <a href="/archives/2008/1/30/freedom-zero">Free Data</a>. As long as I can get my data out of my OS X and put it elsewhere, I don't feel the imperative to demand Free Software as well. Which is not to say I don't support Free Software; by analogy I support public transport and use it when I can, and yet I still own a car. I understand those who find this position to be a conflict of principles.</p> Good links there Brendon. I absolutely agree with the rixstep articles that HFS+ is well and truly due for replacement. In fact Linus said as much at LCA recently. There were many of us who were eagerly anticipating the inclusion of Sun’s ZFS as the new default filesystem in Leopard, but sadly that was not to be.

I don’t disagree with any of the criticisms in the O’Reilly article either, and I would have a few to add to this list (PT_DENY_ATTACH!), but neither these nor the HFS+ problems are overwhelming, particularly given the other major goodness of OS X as a whole. YMMV of course.

I’ve thought a good deal about Mark Pilgrim’s exodus to Ubuntu, and specifically about the freedom concerns. As I stated previously, I share these concerns, but put my main priority on need for Free Data. As long as I can get my data out of my OS X and put it elsewhere, I don’t feel the imperative to demand Free Software as well. Which is not to say I don’t support Free Software; by analogy I support public transport and use it when I can, and yet I still own a car. I understand those who find this position to be a conflict of principles.

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By: Andrew http://girtby.net/archives/2008/02/08/vendor-lock-in/comment-page-1/#comment-1669 Andrew Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:41:00 +0000 http://girtby.net/2008/02/13/vendor-lock-in#comment-1669 <p>With regard to your first claim that the iPhone lock-in is really an AT&T lock-in, the contract between the two really makes it true of either. If you want to buy an iPhone, you get locked into AT&T for two years. You are <em>not</em> locked into the phone itself, but still are locked in to a vendor due solely to the phone's purchase.</p> With regard to your first claim that the iPhone lock-in is really an AT&T lock-in, the contract between the two really makes it true of either. If you want to buy an iPhone, you get locked into AT&T for two years. You are not locked into the phone itself, but still are locked in to a vendor due solely to the phone’s purchase.

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By: Alastair http://girtby.net/archives/2008/02/08/vendor-lock-in/comment-page-1/#comment-1670 Alastair Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:41:00 +0000 http://girtby.net/2008/02/13/vendor-lock-in#comment-1670 <p>Andrew, thanks for the comment. I agree the contract an obstacle to switching, but surely if you pay the money you can still do it? I guess the main difference here between the iPhone and most other mobile devices on the market is that you can't buy the iPhone "unlocked" to a carrier, whereas you can with most of its competitors.</p> <p>(Ignoring the iPod Touch which may approximate an unlocked iPhone for some classes of user...)</p> Andrew, thanks for the comment. I agree the contract an obstacle to switching, but surely if you pay the money you can still do it? I guess the main difference here between the iPhone and most other mobile devices on the market is that you can’t buy the iPhone “unlocked” to a carrier, whereas you can with most of its competitors.

(Ignoring the iPod Touch which may approximate an unlocked iPhone for some classes of user…)

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By: Alastair http://girtby.net/archives/2008/02/08/vendor-lock-in/comment-page-1/#comment-1671 Alastair Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:41:00 +0000 http://girtby.net/2008/02/13/vendor-lock-in#comment-1671 <p>Thanks to Bruce Schneier for the <a href="http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/02/lockin.html">linkage</a> and complementary comment.</p> Thanks to Bruce Schneier for the linkage and complementary comment.

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By: Sunny Kalsi http://girtby.net/archives/2008/02/08/vendor-lock-in/comment-page-1/#comment-1672 Sunny Kalsi Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:41:00 +0000 http://girtby.net/2008/02/13/vendor-lock-in#comment-1672 <p>You make some interesting points, but I can't reconcile it with my intuition. The iPhone can only be used with AT&T. It is "locked" to the vendor. Isn't that vendor lock-in? I haven't read the article, and the points you make are valid, so maybe the arguement the article was making had some issues, but I thought the iPhone would be a pretty <em>good</em> example of vendor lock in.</p> <p>Maybe ipods as well, if you can't use them with any online store (or at least if it looks like Apple are trying to make it difficult for the ipod to inter-operate with other stores). The iPod would be locking you into the music vendor.</p> You make some interesting points, but I can’t reconcile it with my intuition. The iPhone can only be used with AT&T. It is “locked” to the vendor. Isn’t that vendor lock-in? I haven’t read the article, and the points you make are valid, so maybe the arguement the article was making had some issues, but I thought the iPhone would be a pretty good example of vendor lock in.

Maybe ipods as well, if you can’t use them with any online store (or at least if it looks like Apple are trying to make it difficult for the ipod to inter-operate with other stores). The iPod would be locking you into the music vendor.

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